Neither here, nor there, nor in between

"When in the seen will be only what is seen, in the heard only what is heard, in the sensed only what is sensed, in the known only what is known, you will not be by that; when you are not by that, you will not be therein; when you are not therein, you will be neither here, nor there, nor in between. This is the end of dukkha."

(The Buddha's instruction to Bahiya of the Berk-Garment)

Concepts in Mahayana considered heterodoxy according to the Theravadins

From E-Sangha forum's thread

Bits by Venerable Dhammanando

"...But seriously, the Kathāvatthu of the Abhidhamma Piṭaka records the Third Council debates on a great many views, though it doesn't say who held which view (that is left to the Kathāvatthu commentary, composed centuries later). However, a number of the views rejected by the Theravāda seem to exhibit proto-Mahāyānic tendencies. These tendencies are towards docetism, merit transference, the Mahāyānist conception of prajñāpāramitā, downgrading of the arahant and various miscellaneous matters.

Below I list the main ones:


1. Parihāni micchādiṭṭhi — that an arahant may fall away from arahantship.
2. Parūpahāra micchādiṭṭhi — that an arahant may have a seminal emission while sleeping.
3. Aññāṇa micchādiṭṭhi — that an arahant lacks knowledge.
4. Kaṅkhā micchādiṭṭhi — that an arahant may have doubts.
5. Paravitāraṇa micchādiṭṭhi — that an arahant is excelled by others.
6. Vohāra micchādiṭṭhi — that the Buddha’s everday speech was supramundane.
7. Ariyanti micchādiṭṭhi — that all ten Tathāgata Powers are ariyan.
8. Niyāmokkanti micchādiṭṭhi — that a Bodhisatta becomes an ariyan before his final life.
9. Anāgatañāṇa micchādiṭṭhi — that there is knowledge of the future.
10. Paṭuppanna micchādiṭṭhi — that all present events may be simultaneously known.
11. Paribhogamayapuñña micchādiṭṭhi — that merit increases with utility.
12. Itodinna micchādiṭṭhi — that what is given here sustains elsewhere.
13. Pathavī kammavipākoti micchādiṭṭhi — that the earth is kamma-produced.
14. Chagati micchādiṭṭhi — that there are six realms.
15. Antarābhava micchādiṭṭhi — that there is an intermediate state.
16. Amatārammaṇa micchādiṭṭhi — that the Deathless may be an object of attachment for an arahant.
17. Iddhibala micchādiṭṭhi — that through the power of psychic mastery one may live for an aeon.
18. Kamma micchādiṭṭhi — that all kamma gives rise to vipāka.
19. Saddo vipākoti micchādiṭṭhi — that sound is the result of kamma.
20. Saḷāyatana micchādiṭṭhi — that the six sense-bases are the result of kamma.
21. Jīvitā voropana micchādiṭṭhi — that one of right view may take life.
22. Na vattabbaṃ saṅgho dakkhiṇaṃ paṭiggaṇhāti micchādiṭṭhi — that it should not be said that the sangha accepts gifts.
23. Na vattabbaṃ saṅgho dakkhiṇaṃ visodhetīti micchādiṭṭhi — that it should not be said that the sangha purifies gifts.
24. Na vattabbaṃ saṅgho bhuñjatīti micchādiṭṭhi — that it should not be said that the sangha eats.
25. Na vattabbaṃ saṅghassadinnaṃ mahapphalanti micchādiṭṭhi — that it should not be said that a gift to the sangha brings great reward.
26. Na vattabbaṃ buddhassadinnaṃ mahapphalanti micchādiṭṭhi — that it should not be said that anything given to the Buddha brings great reward.
27. Aparinipphanna micchādiṭṭhi — that the aggregates, elements etc. are all undetermined.
28. Manussaloka micchādiṭṭhi — that it is wrong to say that the Buddha lived in the world of men.
29. Dhammadesanā micchādiṭṭhi — that it is wrong to say that the Buddha taught the Dhamma.
30. Tathatā micchādiṭṭhi — that there is a ‘thusness’ that is the fundamental character of all things.
31. Nirayapāla micchādiṭṭhi — that there are no guards in the hell realm.
32. Sāsana micchādiṭṭhi — that the Buddha’s Dispensation may be improved.
33. Saṃyojana micchādiṭṭhi — that after arahantship some fetters may remain.
34. Buddha micchādiṭṭhi — that Buddhas differ from one another in grades.
35. Sabbadisā micchādiṭṭhi — that the Buddhas persist in all directions.
36. Parinibbāna micchādiṭṭhi — that an arahant’s final Nibbāna may be attained without all fetters having been cast off.
37. Issariyakāma micchādiṭṭhi — that Bodhisattas may be voluntarily reborn in hell or other evil states.

........"

Bits about Kathavatthu and its origin from wiki

----------------------------------------

Well, well...

Kind of amusing, I think. In my opinion, the differences between Mahayana and Theravada will be there for a long time for us to debate on. There will be those who wish to maintain that one is right and the other completely wrong, while at the same time there will be those in the other end of the spectrum who wish to reconcile the two. But perhaps Mahayana and Theravada beliefs can never be reconciled by referring to scriptures. New practitioners may simply have to choose which are the most appropriate and "sound right the most" for them to choose to follow (as they are not yet enlightened).

Another thoughts, perhaps for those enlightened ones, the focus on differences may not be worth putting one's effort on too much as it may not lead one to "the end of dukkha" and "the realization of the 4NT" from Theravada's point of view, or to what Mahayana practitioners call "the realization of emptiness" (!?) - probably the same anyway, and is the goal of Buddhism, all traditions, all schools. May be the realized masters of any schools don't bother. "The Truth" as directly realized by Buddhist masters are the same.

Why do Buddhist masters of different traditions and schools sometime talk about the same "Truth" even though they live far apart or even in different times? I think it takes real practice to realize the Truth, and not just scripture debates. By realizing for oneself, the quarrels between traditions become nonsense.

There is monks a domain...

"There is monks a domain where there is no earth, no water, no fire, no wind, no sphere of infinite space, no sphere of nothingness, no sphere of neither awareness nor non-awareness; there is not this world, there is not another world, there is no sun or moon. I do not call this coming or going, nor standing nor dying, nor being reborn; it is without support, without occurrence, without object. Just this is the end of suffering."

(Trans. in Gethin 1998: 76-77).

Paticca-samuppada

Anguttara Nikaya 3:61:

It is with ignorance (avijja) as a condition
that formations (sankhara) come to be;
with formations as a condition,
consciousness (vinnana) comes to be;
with consciousness as a condition,
name and form (nama-rupa) come to be;
with name and form as a condition,
the six bases (salayatana) come to be;
with the six bases as a condition,
contact (phassa) comes to be;
with contact as a condition,
feeling (vedana) comes to be;
with feeling as a condition,
desire (tanha) comes to be;
with desire as a condition,
clinging (upadana) comes to be;
with clinging as a condition,
being (bhava) comes to be;
with being as a condition,
birth (jati) comes to be;
with birth as a condition,
aging and death (jara-marana) come to be,
and also sorrow and lamentation, pain, grief and despair;
that is how there is an origin to this whole mass of suffering (dukkha).
This is called the Noble Truth of the Origin of Suffering.

The 4th Noble Truth

The Noble Eightfold Path, the 4th Noble Truth, may be a wide 20-lane path that allows for more "right views", rather than only 1 right view that has to be identical for everyone, everywhere, anytime.

Perhaps the path starts off wide, but get narrower as one comes closer to total liberalization, when all the 10 fetters have been eradicated.

Dependent origination

"There is the case where a disciple of the noble ones notices:

"When this is, that is.
From the arising of this comes the arising of that.
When this isn't, that isn't.
From the cessation of this comes the cessation of that."

In other words:

From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications.
From fabrications as a requisite condition comes consciousness.
From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form.
From name-&-form as a requisite condition come the six sense media.
From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact.
From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling.
From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving.
From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance.
From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming.
From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth.
From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering.

Now from the remainderless fading & cessation of that very ignorance comes the cessation of fabrications. From the cessation of fabrications comes the cessation of consciousness. From the cessation of consciousness comes the cessation of name-&-form. From the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of the six sense media. From the cessation of the six sense media comes the cessation of contact. From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of feeling. From the cessation of feeling comes the cessation of craving. From the cessation of craving comes the cessation of clinging/sustenance. From the cessation of clinging/sustenance comes the cessation of becoming. From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. From the cessation of birth, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of stress & suffering.

"This is the noble method that he has rightly seen & rightly ferreted out through discernment."

— AN 10.92

"When a disciple of the noble ones has seen well with right discernment this dependent co-arising & these dependently co-arisen phenomena as they have come to be, it is not possible that he would run after the past, thinking, 'Was I in the past? Was I not in the past? What was I in the past? How was I in the past? Having been what, what was I in the past?' or that he would run after the future, thinking, 'Shall I be in the future? Shall I not be in the future? What shall I be in the future? How shall I be in the future? Having been what, what shall I be in the future?' or that he would be inwardly perplexed about the immediate present, thinking, 'Am I? Am I not? What am I? How am I? Where has this being come from? Where is it bound?' Such a thing is not possible. Why is that? Because the disciple of the noble ones has seen well with right discernment this dependent co-arising & these dependently co-arisen phenomena as they have come to be."

— SN 12.20

Noble Eightfold Path

Just a note :)
The 4th Noble Turth..."Noble Eightfold Path"

Is it a 10 lane highway, or a small road???

[Wisdom]
Right View
Right Thought

[Morality (sila)]
Right Speech
Right Action
Right Livelihood

[Meditation (samadhi)]
Right Effort
Right Mindfulness
Right Contemplation

Vipassanupakilesa

Vipassanupakilesa - imperfections/defilements of insight that can lead practitioners to believe that they have attained certain stages (like stream-winner), and can block progress

(1) Obhasa - luminous aura
(2) Nana - knowledge
(3) Piti - rupture / unprecedented joy
(4) Passaddhi - tranquility
(5) Sukha - bliss / pleasure
(6) Adhimokkha - assurance / resolution / fervor
(7) Paggaha - exertion, well-exerted energy
(8) Upatthana - established mindfulness
(9) Upekka - equanimity
(10) Nikanti - delight

Viññanam anidassanam.

Viññanam anidassanam.

From Access to Insight: DN 11 (note)

This term is nowhere explained in the Canon, although MN 49 mentions that it "does not partake in the allness of the All" — the "All" meaning the six internal and six external sense media (see SN 35.23). In this it differs from the consciousness factor in dependent co-arising, which is defined in terms of the six sense media. Lying outside of time and space, it would also not come under the consciousness-aggregate, which covers all consciousness near and far; past, present, and future. However, the fact that it is outside of time and space — in a dimension where there is no here, there, or in between (Ud 1.10), no coming, no going, or staying (Ud 8.1) — means that it cannot be described as permanent or omnipresent, terms that have meaning only within space and time. The standard description of nibbana after death is, "All that is sensed, not being relished, will grow cold right here." (See MN 140 and Iti 44.) Again, as "all" is defined as the sense media, this raises the question as to whether consciousness without feature is not covered by this "all." However, AN 4.174 warns that any speculation as to whether anything does or doesn't remain after the remainderless stopping of the six sense media is to "complicate non-complication," which gets in the way of attaining the non-complicated. Thus this is a question that is best put aside.